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Post by mick on Oct 20, 2023 7:48:47 GMT
What's the general opinion?
In my own village there was a questionnaire and one of the wishes of the villagers was to have speed control outside the primary school.
The response was to make the whole village 20mph. An enormous amount has been spent on signs and road painting and it's made no difference whatever to the traffic speed (as evidenced by 'private' radar guns).
The 'pros' say that the risk of death is doubled when being hit at 30mph as compared with 20mph. That appears to be true but the doubling is from less than 0.5% to less than 1%. Tough if you get hit but is it worth changing everything for that? (see the Welsh bus reaction for example).
I have very mixed feelings and can't help thinking that we need to be more sophisticated than a blanket change.
Mick
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Post by dreampolice on Oct 20, 2023 7:54:47 GMT
In built up areas I have no issue at all. It is widespread in my village, where basically it is all 20. The hardest thing I find is sticking to 20. I generally notice that I am more 24-25, so if they brought in speed cameras etc, it could be expensive. I have noticed that even if the speed is being broken a bit, most cars are still travelling 20-25 ish. I guess it takes time to adjust to the widespread limit.
I noticed travelling in Europe this year, that they are are also reducing theirs. 30 KMPH limits are quite common.
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Post by zou on Oct 20, 2023 7:56:29 GMT
It's great. If idiots in cars think their ability to get somewhere a few minutes earlier is worth the life of a pedestrian then frankly they should be [redacted].
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Post by spinno on Oct 20, 2023 8:15:07 GMT
It's great. If idiots in cars think their ability to get somewhere a few minutes earlier is worth the life of a pedestrian then frankly they should be [redacted]. So you think we live in the matrix... Seriously as Nige says it's hard to maintain 20mph as the cars don't like it, never mind the drivers. |
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Post by mick on Oct 20, 2023 8:36:47 GMT
I maybe should have added that I've lived in the village for more than 40 years and there have been zero RTA's. There may have been minor collisions that didn't get recorded but certainly none involving personal injury. (published facts bear that out - I'm not just relying on having 'heard' about an accident)
OTOH about three miles down the road there's a junction at which there have been very many accidents, at least one fatal. The local authority has done nothing at all about making that junction safer.
Mick
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Post by MJB on Oct 20, 2023 8:37:44 GMT
The only thing preventing a car being driven at 20mph is the human/vehicle interface.
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Post by zou on Oct 20, 2023 8:42:50 GMT
It's great. If idiots in cars think their ability to get somewhere a few minutes earlier is worth the life of a pedestrian then frankly they should be [redacted]. So you think we live in the matrix... Seriously as Nige says it's hard to maintain 20mph as the cars don't like it, never mind the drivers. Try harder. |
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Post by spinno on Oct 20, 2023 8:46:08 GMT
So you think we live in the matrix... Seriously as Nige says it's hard to maintain 20mph as the cars don't like it, never mind the drivers. Try harder. How dare you assume I was advocating breaking the speed limit. |
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Post by zou on Oct 20, 2023 8:57:23 GMT
How dare you assume I was advocating breaking the speed limit. Motorists break the speed limit every single time they drive, I've yet to see any evidence to the contrary. I ain't assuming anything! |
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Post by mick on Oct 20, 2023 9:08:43 GMT
It's great. If idiots in cars think their ability to get somewhere a few minutes earlier is worth the life of a pedestrian then frankly they should be [redacted]. Allow me to play Devil's Advocate. Your response appears to say that a life saved is worth any amount of inconvenience. Carry on (reductio ad absurdum?). if the speed limit were zero there would be no RTA deaths. We clearly, in a modern society, couldn't tolerate a zero speed limit. Therefore we have to set a speed limit that causes an 'acceptable' amount of injury and death.
The question is whether 20mph is that acceptable level at a blanket level or should we be smarter.
Mick
PS Edit: The above is simplistic, obviously. We do indeed tolerate zero speed limit in some areas (pedestrianised) but even that doesn't stop deaths. There was a recent local case of an old lady knocked down by a bike while in the pedestrian area. She sadly died.
I could go on for a long essay but I won't!
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Post by zx9 on Oct 20, 2023 9:12:20 GMT
The only thing preventing a car being driven at 20mph is the human/vehicle interface. I find keeping the bike below 20mph involves not taking it out of first gear which still does not take the revs over 3K so still very quite but the induction raw is rather addictive. The car is a different matter, it is so darn quite and isolated from the outside world that there is almost no difference between travelling at 20mph or 40mph, just how many times it has changed gear and even the gear changes are not easy to spot.
Why drive such vehicles in town? Generally I don't use them for running around locally, I have at least half an hour of 20mph roads to cover before I get to the faster roads where they are more usable.
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Post by spinno on Oct 20, 2023 9:16:51 GMT
How dare you assume I was advocating breaking the speed limit. Motorists break the speed limit every single time they drive, I've yet to see any evidence to the contrary. I ain't assuming anything! Cyclists break the rules every time they pedal, pedestrians saunter around willy-nilly and yes they cause accidents. |
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Post by zou on Oct 20, 2023 9:30:27 GMT
It's great. If idiots in cars think their ability to get somewhere a few minutes earlier is worth the life of a pedestrian then frankly they should be [redacted]. Allow me to play Devil's Advocate. Your response appears to say that a life saved is worth any amount of inconvenience. Carry on (reductio ad absurdum?). if the speed limit were zero there would be no RTA deaths. We clearly, in a modern society, couldn't tolerate a zero speed limit. Therefore we have to set a speed limit that causes an 'acceptable' amount of injury and death.
The question is whether 20mph is that acceptable level at a blanket level or should we be smarter.
Mick
Yes, 20 is broadly agreed to be that acceptably safe level in any built up area, with the exception of where infrastructure allows better segregation of vehicles and pedestrians. Japan generally has much lower speed limits than the UK on comparable roads and from recollection their urban limit (with same caveat regarding segregation) is 30km/h, so just under 20. |
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Post by mick on Oct 20, 2023 9:57:55 GMT
Allow me to play Devil's Advocate. Your response appears to say that a life saved is worth any amount of inconvenience. Carry on (reductio ad absurdum?). if the speed limit were zero there would be no RTA deaths. We clearly, in a modern society, couldn't tolerate a zero speed limit. Therefore we have to set a speed limit that causes an 'acceptable' amount of injury and death.
The question is whether 20mph is that acceptable level at a blanket level or should we be smarter.
Mick
Yes, 20 is broadly agreed to be that acceptably safe level in any built up area, with the exception of where infrastructure allows better segregation of vehicles and pedestrians. Japan generally has much lower speed limits than the UK on comparable roads and from recollection their urban limit (with same caveat regarding segregation) is 30km/h, so just under 20. Do you have any evidence for the bit I've highlighted? It seems to me that 20mph has simply been plucked out of the air.
There's a long, and detailed, RoSPA report that, as you might expect, generally supports the 20mph limit - but even that fails to come up with really convincing evidence that it actually makes a difference. That report says, time and time again, that a 20mph limit is most effective where average traffic speeds are already less than 24mph! It also says, time and time again, that evidence of lower accidents and injuries "may emerge". It seems to me that the evidence is decidedly weak.
It also admits that the introduction of a 20 limit has caused an increase in average speed in nearby areas.
It's not at all simple which is why I began the thread. Prompted by the 'blanket' introduction in Wales. I don't think that many would jib at 20mph zones (more expensive to introduce) but, from what I read, many are against the blanket introduction.
Mick
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Post by spinno on Oct 20, 2023 10:09:53 GMT
It's the blanket that's the issue. Too much Nanny state for some, and not enough for others...
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