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Post by mick on Jul 19, 2023 7:19:14 GMT
I just read an article about the above. Sorry that I can no longer find it to give a link. One of the paragraphs attempted to give a definition, which contained two things that jumped out at me. First, it seemed to say that more or less any unwelcome physical contact could be harassment. Second, that the action did not have to be repeated.
Under that definition if a colleague is 'upset' (whatever that means) and I put my hand on theirs (note lack of gender in these statements) then they could possibly claim harassment.
I then thought about the general social scene. When I was first married one would greet a female friend very 'tamely' - maybe even without any physical contact at all. Nowadays one gets a full blown hug, often with a peck on the cheek into the bargain. Even male greetings have changed. From a handshake I more and more frequently find an arm over the shoulder and a bit of 'back slapping'!
It seems to me that the workplace has tightened but society loosened its attitude to physical contact.
Am I right? Any comments?
Before I go let me make it clear that I'm 100% for a person feeling safe and comfortable in the workplace - or anywhere else for that matter.
Mick
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Post by andy on Jul 19, 2023 7:39:43 GMT
When I worked in an office some of the managers went on a training course that encouraged physical touching as a way of building camaraderie.
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Post by Kath on Jul 19, 2023 7:53:04 GMT
I think it's not that hard to gauge if physical contact would be welcomed or not, and if there's any doubt, just don't. It doesn't seem that hard to me. I realise that putting your hand on someone's arm in an effort to comfort them may seem innocuous enough but it's not actually necessary for providing comfort. A handy box of tissues, offer of a place to sit quietly, offer to call someone, ask if there's anything you can do, a warm, pleasant expression of sympathy on your face (only if genuine, otherwise it might look like you're leering), cup of tea, just listen to them and express understanding and validation of their feelings without trying to take over the conversation...all really useful tactics if someone is upset. I am not a natural born hugger. I hug my children close and tight whenever I get the opportunity but other people...not so much. It always feels awkward and I never know how long it is meant to last. I hate the kiss as general greeting because I can't work out which side to go for or if actual facial contact is expected or not, or how many of the damn things we're meant to do. I hug and kiss my friends back if they've initiated it but my favourite friend in the world just sees me and says 'Alright?' and I love her for it. I'm not about to claim harassment from those who it differently but I'd still prefer they didn't. I suppose the difference here is that we are friends. Not colleagues, not boss and employee, not clients. There's no power imbalance. It wouldn't matter if I rejected a hug from a friend because we're equals. If you are at work it's different. Even if you consider yourself peers, it's not the same as a friendship relationship. And if there is a senior/subordinate relationship there it's even more important to respect boundaries. What goes on in the pub or park or on the street is of no consequence in the workplace to my mind.
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Post by Kath on Jul 19, 2023 7:53:22 GMT
When I worked in an office some of the managers went on a training course that encouraged physical touching as a way of building camaraderie. Jeeze. I'd leave. And I work with my son! |
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Post by kate on Jul 19, 2023 9:50:49 GMT
I think the key here is the phrase unwelcomed touching.
We women can be fickle - and perhaps men too, I don't know.
Having worked in mainly male dominated environments during my career (until I came here), there were times when unwelcome touching annoyed me.
However, there were other times when boisterous fun took place, and I did tend to get teased frequently, I just laughed.
I have to admit there were other times when it was from someone I fancied the socks off, I not only enjoyed it, I probably encouraged it.
I accept it is very difficult for a man nowadays in a mixed male/female workplace to know where to draw the line. Some women flirt outrageously and give off the message that contact would not be unwelcomed.
I think media-exposed high level sexual harrassment claims have encouraged some spurious claims elsewhere. I'm glad I don't work any more.
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Post by willien on Jul 19, 2023 10:19:52 GMT
When I worked in an office some of the managers went on a training course that encouraged physical touching as a way of building camaraderie. Only RBS... |
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Post by zx9 on Jul 19, 2023 10:59:02 GMT
Brought up in a small ish town in East Yorkshire where everyone knows everyone and hugs or air kisses on the cheek were unknown, I still have difficulty knowing how to great people thirty years after escaping.
The European side of the family I married into are very touchy feely when greeting each other, by now they know that I will get the air kiss wrong.
However they did prepare me for working trips over to France and Belgium but it still comes as a culture shock when a burly train driver that you have never seen before seems to want to to be your new best friend just because you fixed the info screen in their off duty lounge.
As with many things today I find it so difficult to read what other people expect me to do, be it how I greet them, what to address them by or even do I hold the door open to them.
I agree the scenario Kate mentions above can be a night mare, especially when it is not a co worker but a client.
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Post by andy on Jul 19, 2023 11:57:49 GMT
I agree the scenario Kate mentions above can be a night mare, especially when it is not a co worker but a client. Aye. One of my customers looks a bit like a barbie doll and after splitting with her fella answered the door dripping wet and wearing nothing but a towel. |
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Post by kate on Jul 19, 2023 12:50:43 GMT
I agree the scenario Kate mentions above can be a night mare, especially when it is not a co worker but a client. Aye. One of my customers looks a bit like a barbie doll and after splitting with her fella answered the door dripping wet and wearing nothing but a towel. Did you help dry her off?  |
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Post by andy on Jul 19, 2023 13:30:16 GMT
Aye. One of my customers looks a bit like a barbie doll and after splitting with her fella answered the door dripping wet and wearing nothing but a towel. Did you help dry her off? No, I was a good boy  . The dog is behaving better with the fella out the way though. Nobody shouting at him! |
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Post by spinno on Jul 19, 2023 21:16:19 GMT
I am aware of a case where four female colleagues went out with a male colleague, whilst on a training course.
The night eventually ended with the guy being thrown out of a nightclub, having been egged on by said females.
The claim was made of sexual harassment and the guy lost his job. Said female conspirators have done rather well in the organisation.
Who said crime doesn't pay.
(I have checked the facts, and there are no sour grapes, so please don't think I'm only seeing one side.)
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Post by mick on Jul 20, 2023 11:00:20 GMT
I think the key here is the phrase unwelcomed touching. We women can be fickle - and perhaps men too, I don't know. Having worked in mainly male dominated environments during my career (until I came here), there were times when unwelcome touching annoyed me. However, there were other times when boisterous fun took place, and I did tend to get teased frequently, I just laughed. I have to admit there were other times when it was from someone I fancied the socks off, I not only enjoyed it, I probably encouraged it. I accept it is very difficult for a man nowadays in a mixed male/female workplace to know where to draw the line. Some women flirt outrageously and give off the message that contact would not be unwelcomed. I think media-exposed high level sexual harrassment claims have encouraged some spurious claims elsewhere. I'm glad I don't work any more. Probably right about the recognition of unwelcome. Still a bit dangerous though if a person took a dislike to another and looked to cause trouble.
Fickle? Don't know about that but I find great difficulty understanding some situations. More years ago than I care to admit, I ended up running a factory where 90% of the staff were women. On occasions, it was necessary for one of them to climb some steps to deal with an issue at high level. I had developed a very close and useful relationship with the union convenor. I approached her and suggested that we adopted a 'trousers' dress code. Her reply astounded me:
Stripped of the very broad scouse it went, " Those that are bothered already wear trousers. Those that don't wear trousers just like showing their knickers. If you try to make them wear trousers you will have big trouble."
That woman (she was HUGE BTW - but that's irrelevant) was wonderful. I like to believe that we became friends. She really 'got' what I was trying to do, saw that it would be good for her members, and helped me every which way. Not at all the picture of a scouse union rep that the press were babbling on about at the time.
Mick
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Post by geoffr on Jul 20, 2023 11:27:37 GMT
I think the key here is the phrase unwelcomed touching. We women can be fickle - and perhaps men too, I don't know. Having worked in mainly male dominated environments during my career (until I came here), there were times when unwelcome touching annoyed me. However, there were other times when boisterous fun took place, and I did tend to get teased frequently, I just laughed. I have to admit there were other times when it was from someone I fancied the socks off, I not only enjoyed it, I probably encouraged it. I accept it is very difficult for a man nowadays in a mixed male/female workplace to know where to draw the line. Some women flirt outrageously and give off the message that contact would not be unwelcomed. I think media-exposed high level sexual harrassment claims have encouraged some spurious claims elsewhere. I'm glad I don't work any more. Probably right about the recognition of unwelcome. Still a bit dangerous though if a person took a dislike to another and looked to cause trouble.
Fickle? Don't know about that but I find great difficulty understanding some situations. More years ago than I care to admit, I ended up running a factory where 90% of the staff were women. On occasions, it was necessary for one of them to climb some steps to deal with an issue at high level. I had developed a very close and useful relationship with the union convenor. I approached her and suggested that we adopted a 'trousers' dress code. Her reply astounded me:
Stripped of the very broad scouse it went, " Those that are bothered already wear trousers. Those that don't wear trousers just like showing their knickers. If you try to make them wear trousers you will have big trouble."
That woman (she was HUGE BTW - but that's irrelevant) was wonderful. I like to believe that we became friends. She really 'got' what I was trying to do, saw that it would be good for her members, and helped me every which way. Not at all the picture of a scouse union rep that the press were babbling on about at the time.
Mick
I worked with union reps who were more in touch with what was going on than were some of their managers. Usually they had a better idea of what would work and definitely wanted the best for customers and workers. On the other hand some managers wanted only the best for the company. I found that shortsighted. |
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Post by willien on Jul 20, 2023 17:37:45 GMT
When I worked in an office some of the managers went on a training course that encouraged physical touching as a way of building camaraderie. Jeeze. I'd leave. And I work with my son! Think how greatful your son is, particularly if PDA might have been involved (No not personal digital assistant).
Awww Mummm. |
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Post by JohnY on Jul 20, 2023 18:27:14 GMT
Aye. One of my customers looks a bit like a barbie doll and after splitting with her fella answered the door dripping wet and wearing nothing but a towel. How do you know that she wore nothing but a towel unless she removed it? |
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