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Post by lesleysm2 on May 15, 2023 9:40:43 GMT
My real point is that I disagree that it's necessary for a manager to be able to do the jobs of his/her staff.
Oh I don't expect them to be able to do the jobs of their staff what I meant was I want them to understand a little of what those staff do, many times at various meetings I have suggested a new manager could shadow some people for an hour or two to get a feeling of what the job is about , management always say that sounds like a good idea but they are totally disinclined to follow it up!
I've worked with such charmers as a manager who claimed she knew everything about being a medical secretary because it was covered for 5 minutes on some course and anyway "It can't be that difficult if you can do it"
(This particular manager had a legendary leaving do when she transferred to our department the staff in her old department told us they went down the pub everyone got very merry, then they all went for a curry and some of the hardened party animals were still in a nightclub at 4am and when my colleague, Hazel said "You must have really liked her" got the classic rely:
"Oh God no! We didn't invite HER!")
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Post by geoffr on May 15, 2023 10:02:32 GMT
Your paragraph starting “Got a degree?” could be applied to almost any occupation. I know this will upset many a graduate but, the practice of providing fast track promotion to graduates needs to stop. The job of a manager is to enable his/her staff to do their jobs, something that is much easier if said manager has actually done the job. I won't rehearse my usual rant about Blair and degrees. Suffice it to say that I have some sympathy with your opinion!!
My real point is that I disagree that it's necessary for a manager to be able to do the jobs of his/her staff. I've managed folk whose job was way beyond my manual dexterity. I've also managed folk whose job was way beyond my physical capabilities. In both cases I was able to bring things to the party that they couldn't (at least that's what I was told!). Even if they had a technical problem I've (sometimes, not always) been able to help with a solution just by asking questions that prompted useful thoughts.
Having said the above I have to agree that it can be useful to intimately know the job that one is managing. I began my career (heaven forgive me!) as a management trainee in the steel wire industry. With permission, I learned how to operate a wire drawing machine (much more difficult than it seems!) which was not part of the course. Knowing how to work the machine wasn't especially useful but I did get a bit of respect from those whose job it was to work the machines.
Mick
I didn't say it was "necessary", I said it was easier. Being able, and willing, to do the job does indeed garner much respect. However, a good manager has to at least have some idea of what their subordinates do and how it is done.
Being willing to have a go, even if you know that you don't have the necessary dexterity or strength will, in my experience, generally result in someone stepping in and offering to take over. I well remember standing by Door 2 R on a 747 and pointing to a box with the comment, "that's the problem". One of the technicians said "I suppose you're expecting me to change it?" to which I replied, "No, just lend me a spanner" which he did and I did the job. If you want to change the way people work, best to know where you, and they, are starting from.
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Post by MJB on May 15, 2023 11:25:40 GMT
The biggest problem with graduate managers is there's always someone in the workforce that resents them being in charge and goes out of their way to hinder them. We have one here who doesn't like the fact that he is under the bosses' son/nephew and is frequently heard saying "I've been doing this for forty years",which is a lie, when the 25 year old tells him to do something a certain way.
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Post by mick on May 15, 2023 11:38:35 GMT
The biggest problem with graduate managers is there's always someone in the workforce that resents them being in charge and goes out of their way to hinder them. We have one here who doesn't like the fact that he is under the bosses' son/nephew and is frequently heard saying "I've been doing this for forty years",which is a lie, when the 25 year old tells him to do something a certain way. Heaven preserve me - I was also a management consultant for a while and often got the "doing it for 40 years" response. As gently as I could (and it wasn't always appropriate) I'd ask if they thought that they had been doing it right for 40 years.
Mick
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Post by dorsetmike on May 15, 2023 11:52:25 GMT
I recall working for Plessey back in the 1970s, the general opinion of new graduates then was that it took about 5 years before they could be considered competent in the design and development areas, I would suspect a similar timeframe for management.
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Post by geoffr on May 15, 2023 16:37:15 GMT
The biggest problem with graduate managers is there's always someone in the workforce that resents them being in charge and goes out of their way to hinder them. We have one here who doesn't like the fact that he is under the bosses' son/nephew and is frequently heard saying "I've been doing this for forty years",which is a lie, when the 25 year old tells him to do something a certain way. Heaven preserve me - I was also a management consultant for a while and often got the "doing it for 40 years" response. As gently as I could (and it wasn't always appropriate) I'd ask if they thought that they had been doing it right for 40 years.
Mick
We certainly had some of those, 30 years into my 45 I realised that most people hadn’t been given any proper training in filling in a log book. Around the same time we had a new computer system so I had the perfect excuse to redesign the forms and produce a decent procedure to use it. When I retired many still hadn’t go their heads around the fact that if there was a box on the page for it the information was required. |
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Post by MJB on May 15, 2023 16:57:23 GMT
I recall working for Plessey back in the 1970s, the general opinion of new graduates then was that it took about 5 years before they could be considered competent in the design and development areas, I would suspect a similar timeframe for management. To be fair Mike, a lot has changed in 50 years. Most, if not all technology or engineering degree courses will include a year in industry. My son went directly from completing his M.Eng in aerospace engineering to being the lead engineer on projects for major clients. Everyone at his workplace is educated to masters or PhD level, so it's not like he was educated at an higher level to his team. |
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Post by mick on May 16, 2023 7:11:35 GMT
Heaven preserve me - I was also a management consultant for a while and often got the "doing it for 40 years" response. As gently as I could (and it wasn't always appropriate) I'd ask if they thought that they had been doing it right for 40 years.
Mick
We certainly had some of those, 30 years into my 45 I realised that most people hadn’t been given any proper training in filling in a log book. Around the same time we had a new computer system so I had the perfect excuse to redesign the forms and produce a decent procedure to use it. When I retired many still hadn’t go their heads around the fact that if there was a box on the page for it the information was required. I could tell you so many stories about the things I saw when a consultant. First the workers (machine minders!!!) who, with the skill of a brain surgeon were able to break into the control panel of their machine and by moving plugs around reduce the 'cooking time' of their product. The management were puzzled because the guys had spare time at the end of their shift and, with the proper cooking time, they should not have. Restoration of the proper cooking had the consequence of reduced complaint levels. Amazing that management hadn't linked the spare time with quality!!
Then the merger of two household name food companies. I was tasked with recommending which of the two IT 'systems' should be the core of the new company. One of them produced a massive management info report that told everybody everything. They had been doing it for years. No one had cottoned on to the fact that nobody read it. Much too big, much too dense and much too frequent. It took a stranger, me, to discover that it was a total waste of time.
Mick
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