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Post by mick on Apr 28, 2023 6:58:43 GMT
We need to stop talking about pay rises as a percentage and talk about the actual physical cash amount. One workplace with 650 workers has just received a £2500 payrise this year. I received an inflation busting 20% payrise that was 8x more when stated as a percentage, but in cash terms was just double that of their payrise. There's some sense in that especially at the low end of the pay scale. IMHO it makes less sense at the top end.
Mick
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Post by peterob on Apr 28, 2023 8:46:24 GMT
We need to stop talking about pay rises as a percentage and talk about the actual physical cash amount. One workplace with 650 workers has just received a £2500 payrise this year. I received an inflation busting 20% payrise that was 8x more when stated as a percentage, but in cash terms was just double that of their payrise. Going back in time pay-rises were "absolute" pounds-per-week but that eroded differentials between pay-scales, these being generally expressed as a ratio. The % rise of an absolute pay-increase is larger the lower the reference wage as you point out. |
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Post by kate on Apr 28, 2023 8:53:09 GMT
Percentages are so useful when talking about inflation... Useful for the Government and apologists, that is.
As a comparative figure it is little indication of how much something has actually risen in price. Of course inflation is likely to come down as a comparison to previous percentage figures. It doesn't mean anything has beecome cheaper or the amount of the actual rise is any less than it was last year.
It certainly isn't a percentage I would base any pay claim on - or use as a base line percentage.
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Post by geoffr on Apr 28, 2023 9:23:34 GMT
Nurses and doctors are, by nature, very dedicated people. The action of successive administrations that has kept their pay at a very low level would not be possible were they not dedicated, they would have quit in droves. Other groups who are well paid can also be dedicated but their willingness to strike and their unwavering support for such action is often why they are well paid. Teachers aren't exactly well paid either but mostly dedicated and abused accordingly.
My former employer has managed to reduce what was a well paid profession to a low paid job by being part of a group that lobbied for a reduction in the required qualifications (it is a long and complicated story). Additionally changes in contracts resulted in some other staff being paid rather poorly.
As far as I can see only the very top management levels, and above, are doing particularly well. I don't know how we rebalance the situation.
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Post by JohnY on Apr 28, 2023 11:06:37 GMT
Two important causes of inflation are presently food and energy. Food and energy might account for a higher fraction of poor peoples expenditure than of rich peoples expenditure. Also poorer people are more likely to be spending more on rented housing than home owners spend on housing.
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Post by don on May 12, 2023 21:38:46 GMT
Two important causes of inflation are presently food and energy. Food and energy might account for a higher fraction of poor peoples expenditure than of rich peoples expenditure. Also poorer people are more likely to be spending more on rented housing than home owners spend on housing. On the housing front I think they could afford a mortgage as it wouldn’t be much difference in price than paying rent. Some building societies are giving 100% mortgages to people who have been renting. It’s the huge deposit needed that stops many people from buying |
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Post by andy on May 12, 2023 21:53:37 GMT
Two important causes of inflation are presently food and energy. Food and energy might account for a higher fraction of poor peoples expenditure than of rich peoples expenditure. Also poorer people are more likely to be spending more on rented housing than home owners spend on housing. On the housing front I think they could afford a mortgage as it wouldn’t be much difference in price than paying rent. Some building societies are giving 100% mortgages to people who have been renting. It’s the huge deposit needed that stops many people from buying I've noticed that trend too....banks advertising mortgages to people who have been renting for 12 months and have good credit. I hope many benefit from it. |
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Post by JohnY on May 12, 2023 22:31:51 GMT
A lot of buy to rent landlords are bailing out, and a good thing too. Interest rates were so low that the easiest way to make money for someone with a decent deposit (provided they could deal with difficult tenants)was buy a run down property and let a tenant pay the mortgage while the property increased in value. Ultra low interest rates forced house price inflation just as much as unsatisfied demand.
Someone renting was often paying as much rent as someone buying. That wasn't right. There is a risk of negative equity for the 100% mortgagee but if they can cope with that for say five years max they are a long term winner.
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Post by andy on May 12, 2023 22:44:39 GMT
A lot of buy to rent landlords are bailing out, and a good thing too. Interest rates were so low that the easiest way to make money for someone with a decent deposit (provided they could deal with difficult tenants)was buy a run down property and let a tenant pay the mortgage while the property increased in value. Ultra low interest rates forced house price inflation just as much as unsatisfied demand. Someone renting was often paying as much rent as someone buying. That wasn't right. There is a risk of negative equity for the 100% mortgagee but if they can cope with that for say five years max they are a long term winner. RE the 5 years finger in the air.....the higher the interest rate the lower the risk to the lender? I guess the banks have done their sums. |
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Post by Chester PB on May 14, 2023 21:13:50 GMT
Two important causes of inflation are presently food and energy. Food and energy might account for a higher fraction of poor peoples expenditure than of rich peoples expenditure. Also poorer people are more likely to be spending more on rented housing than home owners spend on housing. On the housing front I think they could afford a mortgage as it wouldn’t be much difference in price than paying rent. Some building societies are giving 100% mortgages to people who have been renting. It’s the huge deposit needed that stops many people from buying The problem with 100% mortgages is the possible decrease in house prices as a result of higher interest rates (so there are fewer buyers), which might mean that if you sell after 2 or 3 years you may only be able to sell for a price that is less than you originally paid. If that happens, you will need to finance the mortgage on the new house whilst possibly having having some left to pay on the original house too. Anybody buying their first home with a 100% mortgage needs to be certain that they won't want or need to move for a few years (so if you purchase a small 2 bedroom terrace, don't have lots of children immediately). I write as somebody who has had 6 mortgages in 40 years, and 3 of those house prices changed very little during the time I had the mortgage, and for the other 3 the house prices increased by 80-90% whilst I had the mortgage. |
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Post by lesleysm2 on May 14, 2023 22:31:49 GMT
If she is she's bloody lucky most qualified nurses start at band 4 and receptionists are usually band 3 or even 2 maybe she works for a GP as they are technically self employed contractors so what they pay their staff is their business I'd be very surprised if an experienced A&E charge nurse was band 4 they're more likely to be band 6 at very least |
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Post by lesleysm2 on May 14, 2023 22:50:52 GMT
Oh and can we please stop this whole "administrators earning more than nurses shocking!" business
People tend to lump administration staff in with management I've been told more than once when I've told people I was a medical secretary that I am overpaid and they should sack me and employ more nurses!
Admin staff are not management and my opinion on most managers would get me banned from here the "fast track" scheme earns my particular ire ("Got a degree? Come and be a fast track NHS manager! You don't have to know what your lessers do! You just have to make changes! And if the change is a disaster?! Well we don't expect you to stay in one place for more than a year less your career stagnates so the next fast tracker can come in and make more changes to cover any messes you made and so on")
Admin staff have as much of a role to play in the NHS as nurses etc. We may not soothe a fevered brow but we answer the phone so the nurse can sooth said fevered brow etc
My last long term job I might "only" be typing stuff up but the things I am "only" typing were reports that would tell a doctor whether a patient had cancer or not
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Post by geoffr on May 15, 2023 7:17:20 GMT
Oh and can we please stop this whole "administrators earning more than nurses shocking!" business People tend to lump administration staff in with management I've been told more than once when I've told people I was a medical secretary that I am overpaid and they should sack me and employ more nurses! Admin staff are not management and my opinion on most managers would get me banned from here the "fast track" scheme earns my particular ire ("Got a degree? Come and be a fast track NHS manager! You don't have to know what your lessers do! You just have to make changes! And if the change is a disaster?! Well we don't expect you to stay in one place for more than a year less your career stagnates so the next fast tracker can come in and make more changes to cover any messes you made and so on") Admin staff have as much of a role to play in the NHS as nurses etc. We may not soothe a fevered brow but we answer the phone so the nurse can sooth said fevered brow etc My last long term job I might "only" be typing stuff up but the things I am "only" typing were reports that would tell a doctor whether a patient had cancer or not Well said. Unfortunately fast tracking of graduates into management isn’t confined to the NHS. I remember one scheme that was supposed to address a shortage of hands-on engineering staff but almost everyone on it wanted an office job. Your paragraph starting “Got a degree?” could be applied to almost any occupation. I know this will upset many a graduate but, the practice of providing fast track promotion to graduates needs to stop. The job of a manager is to enable his/her staff to do their jobs, something that is much easier if said manager has actually done the job. |
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Post by peterba on May 15, 2023 8:45:38 GMT
Admin staff have as much of a role to play in the NHS as nurses etc. We may not soothe a fevered brow but we answer the phone so the nurse can sooth said fevered brow etc My last long term job I might "only" be typing stuff up but the things I am "only" typing were reports that would tell a doctor whether a patient had cancer or not
Quite right, Lesley. Every organisation needs administration, and if admin staff were removed from the NHS, then the admin work would, as you say, fall to the medical staff..... which would be an extremely poor use of their time. They are better employed (astonishingly  ) in providing treatment and care. |
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Post by mick on May 15, 2023 8:56:44 GMT
Your paragraph starting “Got a degree?” could be applied to almost any occupation. I know this will upset many a graduate but, the practice of providing fast track promotion to graduates needs to stop. The job of a manager is to enable his/her staff to do their jobs, something that is much easier if said manager has actually done the job. I won't rehearse my usual rant about Blair and degrees. Suffice it to say that I have some sympathy with your opinion!!
My real point is that I disagree that it's necessary for a manager to be able to do the jobs of his/her staff. I've managed folk whose job was way beyond my manual dexterity. I''ve also managed folk whose job was way beyond my physical capabilities. In both cases I was able to bring things to the party that they couldn't (at least that's what I was told!). Even if they had a technical problem I've (sometimes, not always) been able to help with a solution just by asking questions that prompted useful thoughts.
Having said the above I have to agree that it can be useful to intimately know the job that one is managing. I began my career (heaven forgive me!) as a management trainee in the steel wire industry. With permission, I learned how to operate a wire drawing machine (much more difficult than it seems!) which was not part of the course. Knowing how to work the machine wasn't especially useful but I did get a bit of respect from those whose job it was to work the machines.
Mick
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) in providing treatment and care.