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Post by geoffr on May 12, 2023 12:47:34 GMT
On Wednesday Nikon announced the Z8 mirror less camera, essentially a cut down Z9. The specification looks good but I'm not going to buy one. now or in the future, almost entirely because it doesn't come with a built in grip. However, that isn't the point.
Ever since the D4 Nikon, and Canon for that matter, have been telling us that the market for their top of the range camera doesn't want a high pixel count. The D6 topped out at 21 MP just like its predecessor the D5. Then the replacement body comes along, the Z9 and its a 45 MP beast. Have the professionals who bought the D5 and D6 suddenly decided they need twice as many pixels? Is there something else going on here? The Z8 has the same pixel count and has been billed as a D850 successor. The D850 and the D6 weren't used for the same subjects, the D850 was designed to excel in a different field from the D6 as far as I can see, but their successors use the same sensor. Please accept my confusion.
As with many of its forbears the Z8 has a battery grip as an optional extra, which is great and a step up from the Z6 and Z7 where the control grip was very much an after thought, and an untidy one at that. Both the MB-N11 and MB-N12 accept two EN-EL15 batteries but the grips for DSLRs allowed, conveniently, the use of the same battery as the flagship. I suspect this has to do with USB charging and price control, additional circuits being required to charge the bigger battery (11.1/10.8V as opposed to 7.4V for the EN-EL15). I suppose it makes sense to someone.
Also since the D4 Nikon has decided that, aside from its flagship model, cameras with two memory card slots should use two different card types. Why? They managed to offer the D5 with an option for CF or XQD, and a service to convert from one to the other. The CF models are pretty rare. I could understand it to some extent for the consumer models where the purchaser might baulk at paying £100 for a memory card but for high end models? If you are paying over £2,000 for a camera with 4K, or higher, video capability surely you are going to need those faster cards? Again, I'm confused.
I have heard from users that the Z series cameras and lenses are superb, one would expect nothing less. I'm not about to change camera systems, I don't make money from mine and I have picked up some really good, recent, lenses at bargain prices. None the less I am left with the impression that Nikon is very much still feeling its way with the Z series bodies. The Z8 and Z9 are very similar to look at but I always thought the Z6/Z7 were going back to the engineers realising late in the project that their expertise has to be packaged. Not that I find the Canon line up any less confusing.
Am I alone in wondering just where this is all going?
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Post by zou on May 12, 2023 13:50:02 GMT
Higher megapixels are in many cases to enable higher resolution video, either natively or then reduced by pixel binning etc.
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Post by peterba on May 12, 2023 15:21:20 GMT
I've no interest in buying any new (or secondhand) cameras unless one of my existing ones suffers a failure. I've got some decent quality (but quite old) cameras, and they still do the job that I ask of them.
There was a time when the latest models interested me greatly, but I find the camera 'arms-race' rather tedious these days.
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Post by nimbus on May 12, 2023 15:33:47 GMT
I would say most pros neither want nor need 45mp, however more cameras are sold to amateurs/hobbyists and those new to photography, who also don't need 45mp, however a proportion of that group want the highest resolution they can buy and are happy to pay large sums of money for it. Not only that they can then be sold some high priced lenses to go with the over-specified camera they do not need but want. Simply it's an oil well for the camera maker. Now I bought for a low price a D800 about 18 months ago, in reality I think my D610 produces better colours from it's 24mp sensor, which is plenty big enough for most peoples purposes.
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Post by geoffr on May 12, 2023 16:55:10 GMT
I would say most pros neither want nor need 45mp, however more cameras are sold to amateurs/hobbyists and those new to photography, who also don't need 45mp, however a proportion of that group want the highest resolution they can buy and are happy to pay large sums of money for it. Not only that they can then be sold some high priced lenses to go with the over-specified camera they do not need but want. Simply it's an oil well for the camera maker. Now I bought for a low price a D800 about 18 months ago, in reality I think my D610 produces better colours from it's 24mp sensor, which is plenty big enough for most peoples purposes. Thought you weren’t in the “arms” race. My SLRs have peaked at 21MP and that’s sufficient for what I do. I don’t know what proportion of Z9 buyers are amateurs, it would be interesting to find out. I have to say that it is the only Nikon mirrorless that I would be interested in, but not until a Mk II comes out. |
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Post by nimbus on May 12, 2023 17:05:12 GMT
I would say most pros neither want nor need 45mp, however more cameras are sold to amateurs/hobbyists and those new to photography, who also don't need 45mp, however a proportion of that group want the highest resolution they can buy and are happy to pay large sums of money for it. Not only that they can then be sold some high priced lenses to go with the over-specified camera they do not need but want. Simply it's an oil well for the camera maker. Now I bought for a low price a D800 about 18 months ago, in reality I think my D610 produces better colours from it's 24mp sensor, which is plenty big enough for most peoples purposes. Thought you weren’t in the “arms” race. My SLRs have peaked at 21MP and that’s sufficient for what I do. I don’t know what proportion of Z9 buyers are amateurs, it would be interesting to find out. I have to say that it is the only Nikon mirrorless that I would be interested in, but not until a Mk II comes out. |
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Post by nimbus on May 12, 2023 17:08:45 GMT
Thought you weren’t in the “arms” race. My SLRs have peaked at 21MP and that’s sufficient for what I do. I don’t know what proportion of Z9 buyers are amateurs, it would be interesting to find out. I have to say that it is the only Nikon mirrorless that I would be interested in, but not until a Mk II comes out. I'm not in the arms race, I couldn't pass the bargain over though. I've handled the Z6 when it was first launched and I didn't like it very much, I certainly don't feel the need to crossgrade to a Z6 or Z7, let alone pay out many times what I laid out for the D800. |
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Post by pixelpuffin on May 13, 2023 5:45:53 GMT
I can’t relate to Nikon as I’ve never shot one - my loss entirely! But I found myself steadily and somewhat reluctantly being subliminally coerced towards mirrorless. It started as a intrigue..what’s all the fuss?? That was the canon M series, more recently I added a used RP, again fabulous. The problem for me is the camera was taking over, I never quite knew if I had taken the shot or the camera had steered me to take the shot. Then 2wks ago I read about how older ccd sensors have a certain look. Intrigued again I looked to past canon models with this sensor but all I found was cmos ? To cut to the chase, I just bought a boxed 2006 Pentax K10D with 10mp ccd. It arrived last week. It’s certainly a step back from the canon gear I have…but in a nice way. It’s not forgiving…at all !!! But when I do get the image I’m after I feel a sense of satisfaction that I had to work at it. I’m not putting the new canon’s (or mirrorless in general ) down, I think it’s amazing technology. But it’s moving closer and closer to how I shoot with my phone, that instant feedback. That feeling you are being led by a unguided hand to get the picture you want. Great stuff. The k10d is polar opposites, it’s brutally unforgiving, so I have to try harder each time I use it. Sometimes it’s frustrating, but when I do get it right I feel I made the picture. It feels very much like the photography I used to know years ago. I wouldn’t call it fun as it’s quite maddening at times, but there’s definitely a sense of achievement when it all comes together. It’s giving me that same kick I got when I first used a real camera back in the early 80’s. In short, it feels like I’m starting photography all over again.  |
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Post by pixelpuffin on May 13, 2023 6:15:31 GMT
I would say most pros neither want nor need 45mp, however more cameras are sold to amateurs/hobbyists and those new to photography, who also don't need 45mp, however a proportion of that group want the highest resolution they can buy and are happy to pay large sums of money for it. Not only that they can then be sold some high priced lenses to go with the over-specified camera they do not need but want. Simply it's an oil well for the camera maker. Now I bought for a low price a D800 about 18 months ago, in reality I think my D610 produces better colours from it's 24mp sensor, which is plenty big enough for most peoples purposes. My thoughts exactly I’m a member of a canon forum and the number of R5’ owners with big white L zooms is mind blowing. Yet the majority of pictures showcased by this $10,000 set up are truly appalling. They’ve bought into the blurb that “you too can take these pictures with this camera” nonsense, a bit like buying a set of pans and suddenly you’re a master chef!! Fact is…. It’s actually made me go backwards, more to prove a point to myself. Point in question…A while ago someone on another forum with the obligatory R5 & big Ol’white zoom had posted a picture of a bird sat on the sea as it washed up the shoreline.. the bird was virtually a dot in the picture. He was moaning the eye focus wasn’t as good as canon claimed to be nor was the combined 8 stop combined IS/IBiS keeping steady whilst shooting at the long end. This is a $10k set up! I’m exasperated by these people that seem to think that just because they bought the latest/greatest they suddenly can capture pictures to rival National Geographic . |
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Post by geoffr on May 13, 2023 6:55:55 GMT
I would say most pros neither want nor need 45mp, however more cameras are sold to amateurs/hobbyists and those new to photography, who also don't need 45mp, however a proportion of that group want the highest resolution they can buy and are happy to pay large sums of money for it. Not only that they can then be sold some high priced lenses to go with the over-specified camera they do not need but want. Simply it's an oil well for the camera maker. Now I bought for a low price a D800 about 18 months ago, in reality I think my D610 produces better colours from it's 24mp sensor, which is plenty big enough for most peoples purposes. My thoughts exactly I’m a member of a canon forum and the number of R5’ owners with big white L zooms is mind blowing. Yet the majority of pictures showcased by this $10,000 set up are truly appalling. They’ve bought into the blurb that “you too can take these pictures with this camera” nonsense, a bit like buying a set of pans and suddenly you’re a master chef!! Fact is…. It’s actually made me go backwards, more to prove a point to myself. Point in question…A while ago someone on another forum with the obligatory R5 & big Ol’white zoom had posted a picture of a bird sat on the sea as it washed up the shoreline.. the bird was virtually a dot in the picture. He was moaning the eye focus wasn’t as good as canon claimed to be nor was the combined 8 stop combined IS/IBiS keeping steady whilst shooting at the long end. This is a $10k set up! I’m exasperated by these people that seem to think that just because they bought the latest/greatest they suddenly can capture stunning pictures to rival National Geographic . I would say that the D5 AF helps in getting the image but it doesn’t do anything for the composition. If you aren’t in the right place at the right time a £10,000 system won’t get you the picture. If you use the wrong AF mode you won’t get it either. When a skilled photographer uses an expensive camera it enhances their chances of getting the result. Unfortunately the advertising doesn’t tell you how many attempts it took get the shot or how much practice the photographer put in before they were getting it right regularly. |
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Post by nimbus on May 13, 2023 7:53:54 GMT
My thoughts exactly I’m a member of a canon forum and the number of R5’ owners with big white L zooms is mind blowing. Yet the majority of pictures showcased by this $10,000 set up are truly appalling. They’ve bought into the blurb that “you too can take these pictures with this camera” nonsense, a bit like buying a set of pans and suddenly you’re a master chef!! Fact is…. It’s actually made me go backwards, more to prove a point to myself. Point in question…A while ago someone on another forum with the obligatory R5 & big Ol’white zoom had posted a picture of a bird sat on the sea as it washed up the shoreline.. the bird was virtually a dot in the picture. He was moaning the eye focus wasn’t as good as canon claimed to be nor was the combined 8 stop combined IS/IBiS keeping steady whilst shooting at the long end. This is a $10k set up! I’m exasperated by these people that seem to think that just because they bought the latest/greatest they suddenly can capture stunning pictures to rival National Geographic . I would say that the D5 AF helps in getting the image but it doesn’t do anything for the composition. If you aren’t in the right place at the right time a £10,000 system won’t get you the picture. If you use the wrong AF mode you won’t get it either. When a skilled photographer uses an expensive camera it enhances their chances of getting the result. Unfortunately the advertising doesn’t tell you how many attempts it took get the shot or how much practice the photographer put in before they were getting it right regularly. There is also the higher the FPS the better, machine-gunning taking over from skill and/or experience, to me it just means ploughing through a large number of frames on a computer. I'd love to see some of these people handed an FM2 with a few lenses to see how they coped. |
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Post by zou on May 13, 2023 8:38:01 GMT
Go to YouTube and check out some of the pro photographer/crap camera videos from DigitalRev, if they are still up. Shows how an experienced user can quickly identify limitations and ways around them to still deliver great results.
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Post by JohnY on May 13, 2023 10:21:05 GMT
Sure the D6 and D850 were were aimed at different users. It was not possible to satisfy both types of user with one camera.Also at that time video was not important in a stills camera. The D500 shares the same AF system as the D5 and D850; that is why it is nearly as tall as a D850.
The Z9 attempted to satisfy those needing speed and those who thought they needed lots of pixels. Both types of user got far more than they needed.
The Z8 seems to be aimed at converting D850 users to mirrorless. Also it is only 30g heavier than a D500 and may get some converts from the D500.
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Post by stevewmh on May 19, 2023 16:01:45 GMT
Be interesting to see how the shutterless sensor works out. Appears to have been a great success on the z9. With no moving parts there's really nothing left to wear out.
Credit to nikon for leading the way
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Post by Chester PB on May 19, 2023 17:09:12 GMT
To cut to the chase, I just bought a boxed 2006 Pentax K10D with 10mp ccd. It arrived last week. It’s certainly a step back from the canon gear I have…but in a nice way. The k10d is polar opposites, it’s brutally unforgiving, so I have to try harder each time I use it. Sometimes it’s frustrating, but when I do get it right I feel I made the picture. It feels very much like the photography I used to know years ago. I wouldn’t call it fun as it’s quite maddening at times, but there’s definitely a sense of achievement when it all comes together. It’s giving me that same kick I got when I first used a real camera back in the early 80’s. In short, it feels like I’m starting photography all over again. My first DSLR was a K10, and some of my pictures posted on this website were taken with it. I later replaced it with a K5 (when superseded by the K3 and being sold off at a reasonable price) which I still have. I only made the change because the K10 had the following weaknesses compared to the K5: The highest ISO on the K10 was 1600, which was not high enough to allow hand held shots with a long telephoto at 1/1000 of a second and F8 or F11 (a result of the Samsung sensor in the K10 compared with the Sony one in the K5). On the K10 I had to go into the menus to change the ISO setting, whereas on the K5 there is a button near the shutter release that allows me to do this without taking my eye from the viewfinder. The resolution on the K10 was 10 megapixels (quite adequate for decent 45x30 cm prints), whereas the K5 is 16 megapixels. This difference is only obvious when larger prints are required, and was not the most important reason to buy the K5. I have on my wall 2 40x60 cm framed prints, one taken with each camera, and it is not possible to be sure which print was taken with which camera. Both were taken with the same lens (an old-model Sigma 10-20 mm), at and ISO setting of 200 so the K10's ISO range was not a problem. The K10 is well built. Mine fell off a pew in Padua cathedral and dropped about 45-50 cm onto a granite floor and worked perfectly afterwards. The attached Tamron 18-250 was fitted with a big (and cheap) collapsible rubbers lens hood which protected the lens, which I still have. |
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