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Post by mick on Jan 22, 2023 11:45:56 GMT
I'd like some views from people other than my immediate circle - folk with very different outlook from me!
I'd also like to stay away from the politics if possible.
Two questions: 1. Should a person (of any age) be allowed to reassign their gender just on their own say so?
2. Is 16 too young?
I'd genuinely appreciate your considered thoughts.
Mick.
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Post by kate on Jan 22, 2023 12:07:39 GMT
It's a bit like being critical of the Israeli Parliament and its lack of independent moderation by a second house or Legislator.
Any comments re gender recognition will be met by the same polarized views.
Is that what you are trying to provoke?
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Post by zou on Jan 22, 2023 12:07:49 GMT
Yes.
No.
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Post by Kath on Jan 22, 2023 12:34:16 GMT
I think someone should warn the supermarkets about an expected upsurge in popcorn sales.
I think it depends on how you define 'reassign your gender'. I think everyone should have the right to declare their gender as they see fit. Afterall who else is qualified to say how a person feels or should feel about their own identity? I take it you identify as male? (I know, I shouldn't assume but for purposes of demonstration, let's.) How would you feel if the rest of society told you that you were wrong and that actually you were female? How would you feel if people told you that you weren't allowed to identify as male? My guess is you'd be pretty peeved about it because as far as you are concerned, you're male, you've always been male and there is no other option but for you to be male. I think trans people feel the same way. The only difference being that in my example, your physical body conforms to what you think you are and for a trans person that's not true. Or might not be true all the time. And I think in an ideal world everyone else should be bound to accept and respect that without discriminating against them for it or causing harm. However I"m not sure that it needs to be something that is officially/legally recognised until a person is older. So if a four year old thinks they should have been a boy, well let them crack on with it but there's no need to change their birth certificate or reassign their gender in an official capacity. Just treat them as they wish to be treated. When to let people make it official? Well, if you're old enough to get married you're probably old enough to know who you are. So as the law currently says you can marry at 16, it seems a logical cut off point.
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Post by MJB on Jan 22, 2023 12:44:50 GMT
Just out of curiosity Mick, what is your stance on this?
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Post by kate on Jan 22, 2023 12:50:42 GMT
Just out of curiosity Mick, what is your stance on this? Is it my overactive imagination or does anyone else think the line of questioning is very reminiscent of MickLL? Just wondering. |
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Post by mick on Jan 22, 2023 13:23:13 GMT
Just out of curiosity Mick, what is your stance on this? Is it my overactive imagination or does anyone else think the line of questioning is very reminiscent of MickLL? Just wondering. Kate, Yes I am MickLL - I made no secret of it when I came here. The only thing that I wanted to 'provoke' was, I hoped, an interesting and instructive (for me at least) discussion. If you don't want to exchange views then I'm certainly not forcing you and I most definitely don't want to cause any of the personal battles that sometimes happened in the other place.
Before I answer Martin's question I will declare an interest - albeit a very distant one and about 4 or 5 years ago. I am acquainted with a child who "socially transitioned" about 5 years ago. I spent many hours in her company.
Here's my , very simplistic, extremely simplistic, summary. 1. Her transition had as much to do with her mother as it did to do with the child. 2. The lack of a male in her life had an impact. 3. The mother's hunger for publicity (she made the front pages of a couple of the tabloids at the time) did no good at all.
I could go on.
Now to Martin's question. I agree with Kath. Again very simplistic If you are in the 'wrong body' you must be allowed to do something about it. I have no issue at all with the principle of gender reassignment.
I do not think that reassigment should be as easy as "because I say so". It's too important for that. I believe that a 'neutral' third party should be involved. I really don't know about the age. Kath's marriage argument is powerful I have to say. I need to add that I don't have a fixed opinion. I was rather hoping that the views of the members here would help me to mature my opinion.
If anyone doesn't like the topic then avoid it. I'm seeking opinion, no more and no less. If Martin doesn't like it then delete it. I will understand completely. There's no way in this world that I want the sort of toxic arguments that there used to be. OTOH I don't think that we should shy away from difficult issues. If anyone finds the thread offensive then say so and we can let it die.
Mick
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Post by steveandthedogs on Jan 22, 2023 13:49:26 GMT
No problem with question one.
Not sure about Q2, my thoughts tend to say "yes it is", but that may be because I'm too far away from 16 to remember what it was like.
S
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Post by squeamishossifrage on Jan 22, 2023 14:33:01 GMT
I can't answer either question, because I just don't know, and I am not sure that anyone does. I believe every case is likely to be different in some respect. Is it nature or nurture? Chromosomes or character? Peer/parental pressure or genuine gender dysphoria?
What I do think is that, regardless of age if below the age of consent, the medical profession should be involved in respect of both mental and physical aspects of the individual, and also social services, in case the parents in a family with several boys are desperate for a girl. It has happened. The person concerned must be of an age where they can fully understand what the medical people have to say, and it's impact on their future life, and that, again, is a moving target.
One thing is certain to me - those of us in the 97% who do not suffer from gender dysphoria, whose 'bits' match their mentality and desires, are the truly lucky ones in the lottery of life.
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Post by nickr on Jan 22, 2023 16:28:22 GMT
In answer to question 1, why not? I can't really see why it's anyone else's business.
In answer to question 2, I don't know. And I'm not sure I need to have an opinion, to be honest.
I do have some family interest in the subject that I'm not prepared to discuss in this sort of arena - not immediate family, I would add.
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Post by MJB on Jan 22, 2023 18:04:58 GMT
I've known two pre-op transgender women. Both knew from a primary school age that they we're their gender was different to what they were physically. Both also suffered serious mental health issues due to not being able to express who they were. Sadly one ended up taking their own life.
I think there's a lot of confusion between 'gender recognition' and 'gender reassignment'. At 16 I was able to make lots of life changing decisions, why shouldn't the choice to live my life as the opposite gender be one of those?
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Post by JohnY on Jan 22, 2023 18:50:39 GMT
I have strong views on this matter but think that the comments allowed after articles in the Torygraph website are the better place to express them.
If the topic comes up in the dying moments of the AP forum then I might be encouraged to be the last person to be plunged into the fixer.
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Post by peterba on Jan 22, 2023 20:09:05 GMT
The gander is usually noticeably larger than the goose.   |
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Post by MJB on Jan 22, 2023 20:10:55 GMT
The gander is usually noticeably larger than the goose. What on earth are you talking about |
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Post by peterba on Jan 22, 2023 20:14:48 GMT
What on earth are you talking about
I've never known what I'm talking about. Why I should start now? |
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