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Post by willien on Aug 18, 2024 15:16:52 GMT
How about the power and resources used to make them? Efficiency of the end product must be cancelled out by the power and mess caused by making them. I recall that many years ago a Range Rover had lower lifetime (including manufacture and disposal) emissions than a Prius. Likely still the case. So probably a much lower average yearly emission. |
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Post by zou on Aug 18, 2024 15:19:23 GMT
I recall that many years ago a Range Rover had lower lifetime (including manufacture and disposal) emissions than a Prius. Likely still the case. So probably a much lower average yearly emission. It's almost as though measuring carbon emissions from a running vehicle isn't the whole picture!  |
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Post by Chester PB on Aug 18, 2024 15:49:59 GMT
How about the power and resources used to make them? Efficiency of the end product must be cancelled out by the power and mess caused by making them. Has anybody ever explained if the manufacture of the batteries (and all the nasty stuff inside them), plus the eventual process of scrapping them without polluting the world, is any better than manufacturing small and efficient fossil fuels cars, eventually scrapping them, and the pollution from the burning of their fuel? Note my careful use of 'small and efficient' in this query.
Also, most (or all?) of the batteries are made in China: does anybody actually want to manufacture them? News reports of pollution in China are not encouraging.
I recently enjoyed a 13 mile journey in an electric taxi, and unfortunately it was driven too fast (for the back seat passenger) through corners. The driver's excuse was that he didn't realise how fast he was going because the car was so quiet... |
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Post by andy on Aug 18, 2024 16:02:04 GMT
How about the power and resources used to make them? Efficiency of the end product must be cancelled out by the power and mess caused by making them. The environmental cost is massive either way but the carbon footprint of an electric car should be lower over the lifetime of a vehicle (it's still massive though). Search "EV break even point" if you want to see people trying to quantify it. As aside some say that the additional carbon cost of an electric bicycle is offset by not breathing hard and not consuming more food to replace the calories burned on a normal bicycle. |
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Post by peterob on Aug 18, 2024 16:21:22 GMT
How about the power and resources used to make them? Efficiency of the end product must be cancelled out by the power and mess caused by making them. You'd think so wouldn't you. From a policy point of view emissions from the vehicle fleet and emissions from vehicle manufacturing (and support services) within national boundaries count, but if the cars are imported the manufacturing emissions are to others' account. For CO2 it is a bit different if domestic production is deliberately moved offshore to avoid emissions being counted. I could be wrong but I don't think that greatly affects the motor industry, little of which is domestic, but there is periodic talk of imposing tariffs on imported cars from outside the EU to balance pricing, part of the higher price of locally produced goods reflects national [European] environmental costs. |
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Post by nimbus on Aug 18, 2024 17:07:27 GMT
Hybrids generally have regenerative features, the economy is clearly better than an ICE engine alone and does away with the range problems of EVs. The problem as with EVs lies with the storage battery, it's bulk, weight and potential replacement cost along with increased danger of fire. I regard any vehicle with more than a normal battery type as a ticking time bomb, in the true sense and in the point of potential failure, the battery gives hybrids and EVs an immediate finite life. I should think it fairer to say that the economy of a plug-in-hybrid used primarily for short runs in an urban environment is better than that of a car with an ICE alone. I tend to agree that the promotion of EVs is a cynical way to reduce the passenger vehicle fleet because the low price end of the used car market will eventually disappear completely. I expect servicing costs will ramp up with age. My current "new" car at 10 yrs and 100k miles is seeing occasional electronic components fail at high replacement cost and I suspect 50% of the normal service cost is the licence to OEM that the garage pays for diagnostics software. It's a different fire risk to gasoline fuelled cars. I wouldn't say necessarily greater. The problem is the intensity of the fire and the contents of the battery which include Lithium. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the fire risk of these cars is somewhat higher than ICE only vehicles. The cost of electronic component replacement is high, worse on some makes than others, the other problem is should these become unavailable an otherwise sound car might well be sent for scrap. |
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Post by steveandthedogs on Aug 18, 2024 17:07:41 GMT
Ah, but that's probably thrown together from the parts bin... S
ps reply to Zou and Range Rovers.
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Post by andy on Aug 18, 2024 17:42:12 GMT
How about the power and resources used to make them? Efficiency of the end product must be cancelled out by the power and mess caused by making them. You'd think so wouldn't you. From a policy point of view emissions from the vehicle fleet and emissions from vehicle manufacturing (and support services) within national boundaries count, but if the cars are imported the manufacturing emissions are to others' account. For CO2 it is a bit different if domestic production is deliberately moved offshore to avoid emissions being counted. I could be wrong but I don't think that greatly affects the motor industry, little of which is domestic, but there is periodic talk of imposing tariffs on imported cars from outside the EU to balance pricing, part of the higher price of locally produced goods reflects national [European] environmental costs. RE tariffs: www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy99z53qypkoThink the US is imposing higher tariffs and the Chinese are already responding by creating manufacturing facilities within the regions to circumvent the tariffs, just as the Japanese once did. |
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Post by geoffr on Aug 18, 2024 20:10:52 GMT
I should think it fairer to say that the economy of a plug-in-hybrid used primarily for short runs in an urban environment is better than that of a car with an ICE alone. I tend to agree that the promotion of EVs is a cynical way to reduce the passenger vehicle fleet because the low price end of the used car market will eventually disappear completely. I expect servicing costs will ramp up with age. My current "new" car at 10 yrs and 100k miles is seeing occasional electronic components fail at high replacement cost and I suspect 50% of the normal service cost is the licence to OEM that the garage pays for diagnostics software. It's a different fire risk to gasoline fuelled cars. I wouldn't say necessarily greater. The problem is the intensity of the fire and the contents of the battery which include Lithium. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the fire risk of these cars is somewhat higher than ICE only vehicles. The cost of electronic component replacement is high, worse on some makes than others, the other problem is should these become unavailable an otherwise sound car might well be sent for scrap. There is no, or virtually no, metallic Lithium in a Li-ion battery, the fire risk is from the organic solvent electrolyte and the stored energy. |
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Post by willien on Aug 18, 2024 20:43:51 GMT
The problem is the intensity of the fire and the contents of the battery which include Lithium. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the fire risk of these cars is somewhat higher than ICE only vehicles. The cost of electronic component replacement is high, worse on some makes than others, the other problem is should these become unavailable an otherwise sound car might well be sent for scrap. There is no, or virtually no, metallic Lithium in a Li-ion battery, the fire risk is from the organic solvent electrolyte and the stored energy. I knew that, amazing what you can pick here, there and here.  |
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