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Post by kate on Dec 4, 2023 12:09:30 GMT
Extract from article Googled from "Renewable Technology" relating to environmental impact on marine life "MCT established a £3m Environmental Monitoring Programme to monitor SeaGen’s environmental impact. The programme was managed by Royal Haskoning and involved scientists from the Northern Ireland Environment Agency, Queens University Belfast and the Sea Mammal Research Unit (SMRU) at St Andrew’s University, Scotland. During the commissioning phase, the programme sent a marine mammal observer to closely monitor how the turbines of SeaGen interacted with the Lough’s marine life. SMRU also operated a sonar system to observe seal movements, which was partly financed by the nPower juice fund. The project received full environmental clearance in January 2012 under the programme, after the report concluded that SeaGen had no major impact on the marine life in Strangford Lough."Exactly so. As I said, there must be revenue to ensure alternative energy production is maintained andproduces usable energy which can be delivered to the grid. Of course it will cost - but that's what we have to do to go forward. We have to pay the price now for what we have done using oil and gas as our main sources. We have to accept it. |
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Post by MJB on Dec 4, 2023 12:38:20 GMT
The turbine in the entrance to Strangford Loch is a very different beast to the proposal for a tidal barrage across the Severn Estuary which would have a massive environmental impacts across South Wales and western England. It would put all of Somerset at greater risk of flooding. The whole Wye and Severn catchment area would be affected, water supplies for the Midlands would be at risk.
Tidal energy has a part to play, but its not a total solution by a long way.
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Post by kate on Dec 4, 2023 15:14:26 GMT
The turbine in the entrance to Strangford Loch is a very different beast to the proposal for a tidal barrage across the Severn Estuary which would have a massive environmental impacts across South Wales and western England. It would put all of Somerset at greater risk of flooding. The whole Wye and Severn catchment area would be affected, water supplies for the Midlands would be at risk. Tidal energy has a part to play, but its not a total solution by a long way. Your analysis seems rather OTT, but as I've already said, siting is important. If you are correct. maybe the East coast where erosion is a problem would welcome it? What people do not accept is the fact that stopping global warming will hurt. We have to pay. Our lifestyles will have to change. Our Government (Heaven help me) has to change. If we do not pay the price, we won't stop it. |
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Post by mick on Dec 4, 2023 15:29:44 GMT
I'd like to expand on a remark I made earlier. I raise it because I've never seen the topic properly discussed.
When power is generated from wind or waves, the generation extracts power from the wind or wave. Imagine a wave hitting a perfectly efficient generator. All the energy of the wave would be extracted and the sea on the output side would be flat calm.Therefore no waves would hit the shore and that would have an effect on the habitat. The same argument for wind.
Yes I know that's absurd and wouldn't really happen, but it illustrates the point that if we extract energy from wind or wave then we somehow, however little, change the habitat on the output side. I would add that sometime ago I'm sure that folk said, "it's only a tiny amount", when they started emitting CO2 into the atmosphere.
Any comments?
Mick
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Post by kate on Dec 4, 2023 17:14:17 GMT
I'd like to expand on a remark I made earlier. I raise it because I've never seen the topic properly discussed. When power is generated from wind or waves, the generation extracts power from the wind or wave. Imagine a wave hitting a perfectly efficient generator. All the energy of the wave would be extracted and the sea on the output side would be flat calm.Therefore no waves would hit the shore and that would have an effect on the habitat. The same argument for wind. Yes I know that's absurd and wouldn't really happen, but it illustrates the point that if we extract energy from wind or wave then we somehow, however little, change the habitat on the output side. I would add that sometime ago I'm sure that folk said, "it's only a tiny amount", when they started emitting CO2 into the atmosphere. Any comments? Mick The habitat exists when the sea is relatively calm though, doesn't it? If it did not, the habitat wouldn't be there. |
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Post by andytw on Dec 4, 2023 21:43:38 GMT
I'd like to expand on a remark I made earlier. I raise it because I've never seen the topic properly discussed. When power is generated from wind or waves, the generation extracts power from the wind or wave. Imagine a wave hitting a perfectly efficient generator. All the energy of the wave would be extracted and the sea on the output side would be flat calm.Therefore no waves would hit the shore and that would have an effect on the habitat. The same argument for wind. Yes I know that's absurd and wouldn't really happen, but it illustrates the point that if we extract energy from wind or wave then we somehow, however little, change the habitat on the output side. I would add that sometime ago I'm sure that folk said, "it's only a tiny amount", when they started emitting CO2 into the atmosphere. Any comments? Mick It seems that wind turbines may have adverse effects on the enviroments they are located in. |
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Post by MJB on Dec 4, 2023 21:49:30 GMT
Solar isn't so great either. Heat reflected back into the atmosphere rather than absorbed by the ground and slowly trickled back. As Andy said earlier, we should be aiming to reduce energy consumption as a priority.
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Post by andy on Dec 4, 2023 22:06:32 GMT
Solar isn't so great either. Heat reflected back into the atmosphere rather than absorbed by the ground and slowly trickled back. As Andy said earlier, we should be aiming to reduce energy consumption as a priority. Wisnae me, I think it was Zou, although I do agree. Tempted to put up christmas lights that spell out "Stuff net zero"....or words to that effect  |
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Post by dorsetmike on Dec 5, 2023 1:02:03 GMT
I was referring to tidal generation not esturial
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Post by don on Dec 5, 2023 1:07:15 GMT
What we need is to use less energy. Try telling all of ny electric appliances that my iPad won’t work without electricity charging it nor any other of my electric devices |
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Post by don on Dec 5, 2023 1:07:26 GMT
What we need is to use less energy. Try telling all of ny electric appliances that my iPad won’t work without electricity charging it nor any other of my electric devices |
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Post by zou on Dec 5, 2023 6:12:02 GMT
What we need is to use less energy. Try telling all of ny electric appliances that my iPad won’t work without electricity charging it nor any other of my electric devices Well if you do everything twice of course it will use a lot! |
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Post by andytake2 on Dec 5, 2023 8:01:43 GMT
NAS study It seems that wind turbines may have adverse effects on the enviroments they are located in. That study seems a bit flawed in saying that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the water, but then says that it increases local disturbances in sediment, which would imply that wind power (i.e. oxygen) is forced into the water. It makes sense that energy taken from the wind decreases oxygen turnover locally, but I believe they need to check the facts before issuing what is effectively bad science. stirring up the seabed by means of a wind turbine means that a lot of energy is being forced down by the turbines into the water.
The whoel tidal/wind power thing is a minefield of physics and biology. It isn't possible to introduce tidal power stations without affecting whatever lies beyond them - energy has to go somewhere, and it's a case of introducing it where it is needed, but also where it coudl help clear up the mess caused by tides that we have created.
It's like the idiots who think undersea housing of computers is a good idea to disperse heat energy. If that energy warms the local environment, it would be a bloody good job to make sure that the environment needs to be heated, or the salt/freshwater balance could be affected as well as marine life.
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Post by mick on Dec 5, 2023 8:29:26 GMT
NAS study It seems that wind turbines may have adverse effects on the enviroments they are located in. That study seems a bit flawed in saying that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the water, but then says that it increases local disturbances in sediment, which would imply that wind power (i.e. oxygen) is forced into the water.
I don't think that follows at all. Your assumption that the disturbance is caused by oxygen seems way off beam to me.
Mick
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Post by andytake2 on Dec 5, 2023 8:43:49 GMT
That study seems a bit flawed in saying that it reduces the amount of oxygen in the water, but then says that it increases local disturbances in sediment, which would imply that wind power (i.e. oxygen) is forced into the water.
I don't think that follows at all. Your assumption that the disturbance is caused by oxygen seems way off beam to me.
Mick
I assumed that the referral to sedimentary disturbances was due to the wind turbine. The other thing would be if what they actually refer to is the presence of a support for the turbine (the pylon) causing changes to the flow of water, which would be the same as any other physical presence. It makes sense that these would indeed cause sedimentary disruption in the same way that a rock, shipwreck, spaceship wreck  or anything else causes a change in water flow.
If this is what they refer to, then the article itself is at fault, and not the underlying science. Again, this points to the need for clarity in reporting sciences, and people like myself who (this time) don't look at the scientific papers referred to can make the wrong assumption.
...edit I just looked again and it states that "...turbine blades create close in turbulence downwind, which stirs up the sediment" so if it refers to the blades, it must be referring to air. Stirring up the sediment by air pressure means that it must by definition be referring to what is effectively wind. If it has the strength to disturb the seabed, it must transmit energy in the form of wind (air) through the water. By extension this means that O2 must mixed with the water
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or anything else causes a change in water flow.